What about atonement?

[Marilyn Mehlmann]

Somehow I don't get it. Is it EVER possible to atone - for one's own transgressions, let alone those of others?

There seems to be some sense in which atonement presupposes the impossibility of forgiveness. If I demand that you atone/make amends, it means I can't forgive you - yes? Or no? Surely conditional forgiveness (I'll forgive you if you crawl/pay damages/confess wrong-doing...) is not really forgiveness? Must it not leave a thorn in the hearts of both parties?

And yet there seems to be something in it. Can it be a kind of 'better than nothing' stop-gap?

As you hear, I'm really puzzled by this. And it seems important. Help, anyone?

[Vic]

Marilyn - IMHO, forgiveness isn't forgiveness unless it is unconditional.

I think forgiveness is an 'action' taken on the part of the forgiver, a decision to forgive without condition. I think forgiveness can happen without the 'forgivee' knowing it has taken place. That's a principle of Ho'oponopono - one just thinks thoughts of forgiveness and mentally asks forgiveness - even of strangers - it's an 'exchange' that takes place in the mind and heart of the forgiver.

I believe the concept of forgiveness is a 'great neutralizer' that simply shuts down the this-for-that indebtedness syndrome. It removes karma, if you will.

In using the Ho'oponopono phrases, I have had interesting experiences where the outcome was not what I expected. For instance, I wanted to be with a certain man, but he was resistant. I had 'loved' him for almost a decade. I directed the Ho'oponopono phrase, "I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you" toward him for a week. My wish for this exercise was for him to come to me freely and admit that he loved me. Instead, at the end of that week, I was fully relieved of my feelings for him. It was a startling change, but it was true. I simply no longer wanted the kind of relationship I'd wanted before with him.

What I believe had happened, in my asking him for forgiveness, was that my interaction or 'indebtedness' with him was neutralized, at least in my mind. I had not felt so free of this situation with him for the preceding 10 years. The effect has lasted, so it must have worked.

One either forgives or one doesn't. I believe it's that simple. But, it's also that difficult.